Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD UPDATED

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Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD UPDATED

Postby Darrel_Griffin » 09 Feb 2019 09:27

The page for:

Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD

currently states in the verdict section: "IMDB lists the OAR as 2.35:1."

Presumably this was true in the past, however, IMDb currently lists it as 1.85:1 :

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057646/te ... tt_dt_spec

I own the Shriek Show US DVD, but I don't know enough about the movie to be sure what the OAR is. But perhaps the line mentioned above should be removed as it is no longer true.

IMDb also says it was shot in 'Totalscope' format, which I had not heard of before, but seems to be an anamorphic format, suggesting that the projected unsqueezed frame would be very wide, and therefore that the purported 1.85:1 OAR seems less likely to be true.
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Re: Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD

Postby Eric_Cotenas » 09 Feb 2019 10:57

OAR is 1.85:1. Italian posters say “Ultrapanoramic” but the variations of “Panoramico” on ad copy were just to distinguish from 1.66:1. It was not an actual process. The American posters say “Totalscope” which was an anamorphic process but this is ad hype like AIP calling some of its non anamorphic films “Colorscope” (although a few like Die Monster Die were anamorphic using outmoded lenses and probably not allowed to use their actual process names) or Spanish posters that feature Cinemascope for Techniscope films or claim to be in 70mm.
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Re: Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD

Postby Darrel_Griffin » 10 Feb 2019 07:36

Wow... how is any of that legal? Don't they have to stick to advertising standards? :roll:

Eric, if you're sure you're right, did you want to remove the bit that says:

"IMDB lists the OAR as 2.35:1."

since IMDb doesn't say that, at least not any more.
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Re: Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD

Postby Eric_Cotenas » 10 Feb 2019 07:51

Darrel_Griffin wrote:Wow... how is any of that legal? Don't they have to stick to advertising standards? :roll:

Eric, if you're sure you're right, did you want to remove the bit that says:

"IMDB lists the OAR as 2.35:1."

since IMDb doesn't say that, at least not any more.



Yes, i will be doing some corrections and additions in the morning
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Re: Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD UPDATED

Postby Eric_Cotenas » 10 Feb 2019 23:45

Fixed.

The English export credits list it as a Superscope production but that is also untrue.
Image
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Re: Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD

Postby Darrel_Griffin » 12 Feb 2019 09:00

Sorry, I should have added the runtimes etc. for the Shriek Show DVD:

Photo gallery (48 images, 4:00)
Italian theatrical trailer (3:11)
Bonus trailers:
- Faceless (1:50)
- Flesh for the Beast (1:44)
- Flesh Eater (2:19)

aspect ratio is more like 1.78:1, but it has small black bars on all 4 sides of the image

30fps only (24p not available) - converted from 24fps to 30fps by repeating every 4th frame

As already mentioned, it has Italian credits. On-screen title: La Vergine di Norimberga

movie runtime: 83:48

confirmed as region 1 only
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Re: Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD UPDATED

Postby Eric_Cotenas » 14 Feb 2019 16:31

Updated.
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Re: Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD UPDATED

Postby Darrel_Griffin » 15 Feb 2019 10:22

Thanks Eric.

I noticed that you wrote "Transfer is interlaced", which I didn't think was true. So I checked again, and I have realised that my belief as written that it is "converted from 24fps to 30fps by repeating every 4th frame" is WRONG. It seems it is my Blu-ray player that is presenting the frames in this way, even when paused and using frame advance. My Panasonic player has 3 settings for Progressive: Auto / Film / Video. For this release, when set to 'Auto' or 'Video' it displays the frames as mentioned, but when set to 'Film' it displays clear interlacing artefacts.

I wrote similar things about every 4th frame being repeated in other recent posts, namely:

Violence in a Women's Prison & Women's Prison Massacre DVDs

and

Nazisploitation Collection (Nordic DVD box set)

I have now edited these posts and removed these lines, although the releases in question ARE still non-progressive transfers (24p not available).

Apologies for this, but hopefully these posts are now correct.
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Re: Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD UPDATED

Postby Eric_Cotenas » 15 Feb 2019 10:35

Some of the Shriek Show discs were converted from 25fps to 29.97 while others either took a PAL and slowed it down to 23.976 but then encoded as 29.97 (or 59.94i). I think there were a handful of progressive DVDs but Shriek Show was always inconsistent.
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Re: Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD UPDATED

Postby Darrel_Griffin » 15 Feb 2019 11:48

It's interestng you mention that. It raises a couple of points:


1. 29.97fps NTSC frame rate

Just yesterday I was reading again about the NTSC 29.97fps frame rate. It all seems very complicated, ultimately to do with the limitations of physical electronic components such as frequency dividers, with the frame rate of broadcasts changing from 30fps to approx. 29.97fps when color/colour TV was introduced.

However, with digital media such as DVD and Blu-ray, I don't think it works quite like that, although I admit I am not certain. My impression is that, whatever the actual frame rate of an NTSC playback system is in real time, the in-built counter on the player always counts 30 frames for each of its 'seconds'. So for example, when the counter reaches 1:00:00, it will have displayed exactly 3600 x 30 = 108000 frames, and NOT 3600 x 29.97 = 107892 frames.

If I am correct, then for example a PAL -> NTSC conversion would convert 25 frames to 30, and not to 29.97.


2. Shriek Show DVDs

I don't know much about Shriek Show, although I do own quite a few of their releases. I had assumed that they mostly used source material that was 24fps scanned from film, with occasional exceptions such as 'Jungle Holocaust' that is a PAL -> NTSC conversion that converts 25fps -> 30fps, hence the shorter runtime (as it is effectively running at 25fps instead of 24fps).

If a 25fps PAL source is slowed down to 24fps and then stored on the DVD like that as a progressive transfer, there should be no interlacing issues. If instead it is slowed down to 24fps, then converted from 24fps -> 30fps using 2:3 pulldown, I believe some players can still reverse engineer this to display it as 24fps progressive.

But if many or most of their releases are sourced from PAL, that would surely compromise the picture quality even if the transfer is progressive, because of the different pixel resolutions. If an HD master is converted to PAL with 576 lines, and then from that converted again to NTSC with 486 lines, that would produce a poorer result than converting directly from the HD master to NTSC.

Having said that, I will still praise Shriek Show for releasing many excellent obscure titles, almost always uncut and with the OAR, as well as including many nice bonus features :-D
Last edited by Darrel_Griffin on 15 Feb 2019 12:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD UPDATED

Postby Eric_Cotenas » 15 Feb 2019 12:10

It’s not “reverse engineered”. The progressive image is encoded as 23.976 and the resulting file is flagged to be treated as 29.97 for players/monitors that do not support the framerate where pulldown is applied on the fly rather thsn hard-coded.
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Re: Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD UPDATED

Postby Darrel_Griffin » 15 Feb 2019 12:44

No you misunderstand me. I believe most NTSC DVDs are stored as 24fps with flags, and are converted to 30fps on playback, as you say. However, occasionally the frame rate is converted to 30fps first, and then stored on the disc as 30fps. I think some players can still convert these discs back to 24fps on playback by recombining the fields in the appropriate way.

Do you know the answer to my first point? I have been searching online, but so far have been unable to determine if an NTSC DVD stores exactly 30 frames in each 'second', or if instead some 'seconds' contain only 29 frames or whatever. In other words, do NTSC DVDs use drop frame timecode or non-drop frame timecode?
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Re: Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD UPDATED

Postby Eric_Cotenas » 15 Feb 2019 13:20

29.97 frames (59.94 fields per second) is NTSC DVD compliant. I don’t think NTSC can contain 60 fields/30 frames exactly at least in terms of being compliant and the standards converters for PAL and the hard or soft pulldown hardware and software for film for industrial use probably has this in mind.
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Re: Virgin of Nuremburg (1963) DVD UPDATED

Postby Darrel_Griffin » 16 Feb 2019 10:43

I have just done some more searching online, and found the following pages, all of which suggest that NTSC DVDs use non-drop frame timecode:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-Jl ... 22&f=false

http://forum.doom9.net/showthread.php?p=1843823&nojs=1

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=170405


It's all a bit complicated, plus I can't be sure that any of the above pages are accurate, but if true then when playing back an NTSC DVD, the timecode (in the form hh:mm:ss:ff) of 01:00:00:00 (i.e. one hour) would be reached after 3600 x 30 = 108000 frames, and not after approx. 3600 x 29.97 = 107892 frames.

Even if this is true, the real world time would usually be different, as the player would still usually output the frames at a real world time rate of 30/1.001 = approx. 29.97fps. This is for various reasons, including compatibility with analogue TVs etc., as well as the need to maintain synchronization between the video signal and the audio signal. So when the player counter (hh:mm:ss) reaches 1:00:00 (one 'hour'), it would in fact have been playing for 1.001 times longer in real world time, i.e. 1 hour 3.6 seconds.

Of course, a player and display could be theoretically be built that would play an NTSC DVD at any frame rate desired (within reason), including 29.97fps, 30fps or anything else. But any change from the original playback speed of the video requires the audio playback speed to be changed by the same amount in order to maintain synchronization, and if the audio pitch is to be preserved, a time-stretching/time-compressing algorithm needs to be used, which compromises sound quality (although modern algorithms do generally yield pretty good results if the speed change is not extreme).
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